Feb 28 2007
Christofascist Idiot Watch Update! Late Feb. edition
Is it just me or is the Religious Right a bit quieter since the November elections? Not quiet enough. A legislator in Tennessee is trying to force the creation vs. evolution debate into the forefront again, this time by having the state Education Commissioner answer, once and for all, whether there is a ‘Supreme Being’ that created the universe.
As the resolution is written, if Seivers does answer no to the first question - stating that the universe was not created by a Supreme Being - she would be offered “the General Assembly’s admiration for being able to decide conclusively a question that has long perplexed and occupied the attention of scientists, philosophers, theologians, educators and others.”
But if she answers yes, or states that the answer to the creation of the universe is uncertain, then there is a follow-up question that must also be answered: Why is creationism not being taught in Tennessee schools?
Wow, how clever. They still haven’t gotten over that monkey trial thing down there, apparently. Or grasped the definition of the word, “science”, for that matter:
Finney said there is no doubt in his own mind that everything in the universe, including human beings, was created by a Supreme Being.
“There has never been any proof offered that Darwin’s theory of evolution is correct,” he said.
Uh, okay. If you say so. Curious how the article also gives us the intertwining of the words ‘creationism’ and ‘intelligent design’. I thought ID wasn’t religious? Who knew?
Next up, WorldNut Daily is reporting of the heads exploding over the James Cameron documentary about the alleged Jesus tomb thing. Brent Bozell, head of the right-wing crybaby media watch group, Media Research Center:
“Now it’s the ‘tomb’ of Jesus,” Bozell said. “What they’re really doing is attacking Christianity. The title of the documentary ought to be ‘Discovery Channel Says Christianity Is a Fraud’ – but they don’t have the guts to say it.”
Knight told WND that the danger is that people will believe what they see. “We saw this with the ‘Da Vinci Code.’ People bought into the alleged historical accuracy of claims, made even in a work of fiction, so when a documentary comes along, posing as objective critical analysis, that means more people will buy into the absurd and unproven premise that Jesus was just a man and that his earthly remains have been found.”
He noted that the “leap” of logic the film forces viewers to make is beyond belief. “All they can tell us is that two of the caskets in the crypt held remains that were unrelated maternally, then they take the giant leap of logic that these two people were married and they were Jesus and Mary Magdalene.”
Apparently , Bozell fails to mention the ‘leap’ of logic it requires to believe the ‘unproven premises’ such as a man was born of a virgin and subsequently rose from the dead. And the idea that somehow Christianity is immune to criticism and ridicule is par for the course, as well. Seeing how true believers are reacting to this makes me wonder out loud… what piece of irrefutable proof that solidly debunks the Christian mythology would ever be believed by these people? I’m not implying the tomb is the one, but I think no matter how compelling the evidence may be on these kinds of things, there is no way that people will ever accept them, for their worlds would come crashing down if they did.
Finally, over at Smirking Chimp, Mel Seesholtz has a rundown on fundamentalist homophobia and hypocrisy, ‘ex-gay’ therapy, the ‘Left Behind’ video game (where players get to kill the non-believers in bloody displays of Christian love and tolerance), and a host of other things that are indicating a lot of trouble in the ranks of the Religious Right, including their ever-diminishing influence. It’s quite an extensive good read, so check it out: ‘The Hypocritical Christian Right is being “Left Behind”
Happy Wednesday, everybody.
20 Responses to “Christofascist Idiot Watch Update! Late Feb. edition”
Posts
“what piece of irrefutable proof that solidly debunks the Christian mythology would ever be believed by these people?”
What piece of irrefutable proof do you have, JD? I mean, man, if some like me, who was raised to hate and fear organized religion as the root of all evil, cannot be convinced, what kind of proof of you really have.
I don’t have any, nor was I claiming to. I was just asking of believers, ‘what would it take?’, because somehow if this thing pans out to be true, I doubt those who don’t believe based on real ‘evidence’ are going to have their minds changed. I don’t see too many liberal Christians getting their panties in a wad about this, because I suspect most of ‘em don’t buy into the supernatural hooey to begin with.
I don’t hate or fear organized religion, as you put it. I do fear the actions of many of its believers, however.
What do you think of this tomb story? Have you dismissed it outright, or are you open to the possibility that there actually might be something to it?
I am always open to anything, but from what I have read, this is the work of a documentary film maker with an agenda, not a scientifically derived finding.
I think neither this nor the Da Vinci Code stuff threaten Christianity in the least. When people come seeking Christ, it is for a reason more powerful than some fiction book or agenda-driven documentary can overcome.
(Hey, thanks. I was trying to write a Christian post earlier, but I couldn’t think of how to start it. I think I just did. I won’t be up until later though.)
I don’t know what it would take for me to stop believing in God. Let me think about that.
That should be: It won’t be up until later.
So if Cameron didn’t have an alleged ‘agenda’ (which, by the way is backed up with some serious archaeological evidence, btw), would you be more open to it? Or is the very fact that someone’s casting doubt on the fairy tales ‘agenda’ enough to dismiss it?
What if this turns out to be valid? Do you then ignore it like so many other things that don’t correspond to Biblical reality?
(Are we really starting this up again? Where’s John and Rebecca when I need ‘em?)
“which, by the way is backed up with some serious archaeological evidence, btw”
From what I read, ’serious’ is an overstatement. Let me see if I can find some of the stuff I read on it.
I don’t dismiss everything that goes against the Bible out of hand, you know JD. I would think that I have proven myself to be more open-minded than that by now.
What do you mean by “turns out to be valid”?
I thought Jesus didn’t exist? Think about what this will do to that argument! There are whole websites dedicated to that theory.
I’m not one who’s ever said Jesus didn’t exist. He probably did. I look at him as a well-meaning philosopher type, kind of the first hippie, who was slightly crazy. I just don’t buy into any of the supernaturalism, that part is ridiculous and not supported by any evidence.
By ‘turns out to be valid’, I mean that as research continues on this, it does turn out to be where Jesus was buried with his parents, wife, brothers, and son. It doesn’t say anywhere in the Bible about Jesus not being married or having a child, does it?
From that Newsweek article:
To calculate the odds, Mr. Jacobovici took the data to University of Toronto mathematician Dr. Andrey Feuerverger. Factoring in the commonality of these names in first-Century Israel, Dr. Feuerverger puts the odds of this tomb not belonging to Jesus and his family at one in 600.
Another estimate, commissioned by Dr. James Tabor, chair of the department of religion studies at the University of North Carolina, puts the odds at one in 42 million. “If you took the entire population of Jerusalem at the time,” says Dr. Taber, “and put it in a stadium, and asked everyone named Jesus to stand up, you’d have about 2,700 men. Then you’d ask only those with a father named Joseph and a mother named Mary to remain standing. And then those with a brother named Yose and a brother named James. Statistically, you end up with one person.”
And there is nothing whatsoever proving that Jesus rose from the dead, or performed miracles, or was born of a virgin, which are all similar traits attributed to other figures in religious mythology as well. At least this discovery at least has some tangible evidence going for it.
If you can put aside your idea of an ‘agenda’ (an unprovable notion which you seem to conveniently use often, as a means to ignore evidence whenever something contradicts your perception of reality)for a moment, and just look at this in an objective manner, what about it seems so impossible?
Wm. F. Buckley is Brent Bozell’s uncle.
“an unprovable notion which you seem to conveniently use often, as a means to ignore evidence whenever something contradicts your perception of reality”
Do I really use the term “agenda” that often? Do I use it more often than you do?
I say they had an agenda because the director was quoted as saying something to the effect that he wanted to back up the Da Vinci Code with facts for those who thought it was fiction.
That’s an agenda.
There are experts who do not agree with the documentary.
Someone said (sorry, I don’t have the article) that the Ancient Semitic script is known to be difficult to decipher, so the name “Jesus” might not even be translated correctly.
This Reuters story has a couple of detractors (these are direct quotes):
- Dr. Shimon Gibson, one of the archeologists who discovered the tomb, told Reuters at the news conference he had a “healthy skepticism” the tomb may have belonged to the family of Jesus, but the claims deserved to be investigated.
- In Jerusalem, the Israeli archeologist who also carried out excavations at the tomb on behalf of the Israel Antiquities Authority, disputed the documentary’s conclusions.
The archeologist, Amos Kloner, said the 2,000-year-old cave contained coffins belonging to a Jewish family whose names were similar to those of Jesus and his relatives.
“I can say positively that I don’t accept the identification (as) … belonging to the family of Jesus in Jerusalem,” Kloner told Reuters. “I don’t accept that the family of Miriam and Yosef (Mary and Joseph), the parents of Jesus, had a family tomb in Jerusalem.”
“They were a very poor family. They resided in Nazareth, they came to Bethlehem in order to have the birth done there — so I don’t accept it, not historically, not archeologically,” said Kloner, a professor in the Department of Land of Israel Studies and Archeology at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv.
Also, I don’t see how this can be proven, since there is no way to know if these really are the people from the Bible.
If they are doing DNA testing, who are testing it against??
If it turned out to be true, if there was some way to actually prove it, I am not sure what that would mean.
Yeah, you do tend to dismiss things because of those ‘agendas’ that the wingnuts over at WorldNut Daily believe as par for the course (you really should find a more credible news source- they make FOX look reliable and sane by comparison).
Where did you read Cameron saying something about the DaVinci code? Nobody I know with half a brain ever professed it being true. It’s fiction, just like much of the Bible (although with a lot less artistry than the Bible, I’ll admit).
Of course they wouldn’t be trying to tie it to someone’s DNA today.. that’s ridiculous. If they tie the DNA from Jesus to his son (the ‘grandson of God?’), that would merely prove he had a son. Which, once again, doesn’t contradict anything in the Bible. But if they tie Joesph’s DNA to Jesus, there goes that ‘virgin birth’ fable.
So back to that hypothetical… if (and I’m not saying they will) they were to somehow prove it, how would that change your faith (and I’m not insinuating you’d have to give up believing in God - many many Christians are devout and don’t buy into the supernatural hooey- neither did Thomas Jefferson).
It really blows my mind how fundies are so threatened by this yet liberal Christians are fascinated and look at it with a sense of wonder, not dread. Why do you think that is?
Just to cut some of you history buffs off at the pass, yes, I know Thomas Jefferson wasn’t a Christian, like most Founding Fathers, he was a deist.
I have to go tuck in the kids - I will be back to respond to this, but I have to say - where in the heck did you get the idea that I read World Net Daily?!?!?! I don’t. In the past, I have read a couple of stories that were linked or came via google alerts for my homeschooling alerts, but I did not read about this there.
“Of course they wouldn’t be trying to tie it to someone’s DNA today.. that’s ridiculous. If they tie the DNA from Jesus to his son (the ‘grandson of God?’), that would merely prove he had a son. Which, once again, doesn’t contradict anything in the Bible. But if they tie Joesph’s DNA to Jesus, there goes that ‘virgin birth’ fable.“
So if they tie the DNA of the person named “Son of Jesus” to the DNA of the person in the same tomb labeled “Jesus,” this will prove that Jesus Christ had a son. Um, no. It will prove that that person, who they are claiming is Jesus Christ, had a son.
My question is how can they prove that is actually the Jesus of the Bible?
“o back to that hypothetical… if (and I’m not saying they will) they were to somehow prove it, how would that change your faith“
I am not sure. If they could prove that Jesus was not resurrected (which I have no clue how they could prove that), it would undercut any notion of forgiveness and grace. We would be back to a strict moral code, such as in the Old Testament, I guess.
You tend to look at this as a bunch of people who are unwilling to look at science and cling to fairy tales, but for someone who has witnessed a remarkable transformation of their heart as a result of giving their lives to Jesus, it would take a whole lot more than some speculation about some old bones to convince that person that it is all a fairy tale.
“It really blows my mind how fundies are so threatened by this yet liberal Christians are fascinated and look at it with a sense of wonder, not dread. Why do you think that is?“
I can’t say. Who are these “liberal Christians”? Is there something I can read? Even the liberalest Christians I know still think that Jesus rose from the dead. (I think anyway. I’ll have to ask them.)
I don’t get why you would call yourself Christian if you did not believe Jesus was the Christ. Or do they believe He was a mortal man chosen as God’s prophet?
I can’t speculate about people I don’t know about.
About fundies (which I was told I am not actually a fundie, but an evangelical and apparently there is some nuance there, but don’t ask me what it is - frankly, I think it’s all rather foolish), all I can say is I don’t think it is that they are threatened by this - no one is going to believe it anyway, I think they are just tired of the fact that every Lent (the run-up to Easter), someone comes up with another “the real Jesus: the Bible is wrong” type thing. It’s annoying. Yeah, we have a big holiday and lots of people who don’t normally come to church come. Get over it.
My church had almost 4,000 people last Easter. Let’s face it. Easter is a threat to atheists. Perhaps more so than Christmas because it commemorates Jesus dying for our sins and overcoming death - and, more importantly, it hasn’t been commercialized as much.
JD, I don’t want to do this if you won’t respect me in the morning. Our friendship is too important.
Aw Jeez, here we go again…
I thought I remember reading in a few of your posts about WorldNet Daily. I would actually have been surprised if you got your news from there. It’s pretty bad.
Ok…
So if they tie the DNA of the person named “Son of Jesus” to the DNA of the person in the same tomb labeled “Jesus,” this will prove that Jesus Christ had a son. Um, no. It will prove that that person, who they are claiming is Jesus Christ, had a son.
My question is how can they prove that is actually the Jesus of the Bible?
As with many things this old, religious or not, they can’t prove it 100%. But they most certainly can put it in the ‘high probability’ range.
I am not sure. If they could prove that Jesus was not resurrected (which I have no clue how they could prove that), it would undercut any notion of forgiveness and grace.We would be back to a strict moral code, such as in the Old Testament, I guess.
Well, nobody has proven Jesus DID rise from the dead, so at best, we’d have a draw, right? Or, possibly chuck the whole idea and start over with a personal humanistic religion that doesn’t have its foundations on a bunch of things with little to no evidence. One can still lead a purposeful good life that way.
As far as the liberal Christians I know, I know quite a few. And very few of them actually believe in the zombie Jesus myth. They look at it as metaphor and symbolism.
Let’s face it. Easter is a threat to atheists.
Let’s face it. Almost all atheists think Easter is as ridiculous as the zombies in Night of the Living Dead. I feel about as threatened by it as I feel threatened by Second Vermont Republic being taken seriously. Which is not at all.
You’re hinting at that somewhat insulting belief that many Xtians have that us atheists really believe deep down inside, we’re just too scared to admit it.
You better not keep me up all night coming back here. You better be careful or I might show up at that blog thing on Saturday.
“You’re hinting at that somewhat insulting belief that many Xtians have that us atheists really believe deep down inside, we’re just too scared to admit it.“
No, I really didn’t mean it that way. What I meant was it is a threat because it is a time when a lot of people start becoming interested in finding out more about Christianity. Correct me if I am wrong, but the last thing you want is more people to believe in the “zombie fairy tale” thing.
Think about it. What better way to stop people from going to check out an Easter service than national headlines that contradict the whole Easter story?
I actually can’t keep this going all night. When we were watching “Scrubs,” my husband said that he wanted to spend some time together. I just came to shut down the computer.
You should still come Saturday. How often do you get so many VT bloggers in the same room?
“As with many things this old, religious or not, they can’t prove it 100%. But they most certainly can put it in the ‘high probability’ range.“
I don’t see how they can do this, other than what they have done, which is to say that the odds of having these particular names all in one family makes it likely that it is the Jesus of the Bible. That has already been disputed (in terms of what the odds actually are).
There is no other way to prove it is the Jesus of the Bible because there is no blood line to match the DNA to.
Speaking of which, if Jesus did have a son, how was that covered up? Surely people would not have believed these stories if there was a living son around.
I don;t think that if he had a son, it was ‘covered up’. It just wasn’t mentioned because it wasn’t important to what he was doing. The Gospels are a telling of the public life of Jesus, not what he did when he went home at night. So, like I said, him having a son or wife doesn’t contradict what was in the Bible.
Another thing to consider, which I find funny listening to some of the people that are angry about this. Ulitimately, it’s not up for us critics to prove Jesus didn’t rise from the dead or did miracles or was born of a version. The people making the claims bear the burden of proof, which they haven’t been able to do so far.
That’s why I find the reaction so amusing; getting upset over one person’s alleged claims that at least have some possible physical evidence, because they contradict claims that have no evidence whatsoever, and are even less likely due to the supernatural nature of them.
Like I said before, I think the upset-ness is over the fact that we have a very important Holy day coming up and every year around this time there is an attempt to discredit the resurrection.
That said, I am not upset over this. I really don’t care. I don’t think it is going to make a difference either way to anyone’s faith.
That said, I am not upset over this. I really don’t care. I don’t think it is going to make a difference either way to anyone’s faith.
Can’t disagree with you on that.